defense. what did that nexus look like? >> it's good that you put it that way, anti-anti-apartheid because that's exactly what these people were. they would never actually come out and try to rationalize apartheid or try to sell apartheid to an american audience. i mean, that basically couldn't be done. but there were plenty of conservatives that had other ways of rationalizing it, the other one being the cold war, right? south africa was surrounded by hostile countries. if you asked a south african government to describe its enemies, p would always say they're communists. everyone surrounding us is a communist, you know. the anc is communist. and we've got to, you know, to struggle to defeat communism. in fact, it was an interesting country, you know, the apartheid regime. in some ways they were -- you know, they had this vision of the world as a gigantic communist conspiracy that was very familiar to a lot of american conservatives. >> i want to look at -- congresswoman, i want to read this headline, they put this up today. this was kind of an ab amazing revelation that came out in 1995.